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He Quit House Flipping for Land… Then Made $1.5M In 2024! (HERE'S HOW)

Mike Defrancis walked away from house flipping—and the headaches that came with it—to dive headfirst into land investing. In this episode of The Real Estate Investing Podcast, he reveals exactly how he scaled his land business to $1.5 million in profit within a year.

Mike breaks down why he ditched house flipping, the strategies he used to find and flip high-margin land deals, and how he leveraged smart marketing to fuel his rapid growth. He’s now moving into entitlement and minor subdivides, aiming for an even bigger year ahead—$4 million to $5 million in 2025.

If you’re wondering whether land investing is the real deal, this episode lays it all out.

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This isn’t just another success story—it’s a masterclass in how to escape the grind and build serious wealth with land. Mike shares the game-changing tactics that allowed him to quit his W-2 job and create a business with massive upside. 

He proves that land investing is still an untapped opportunity, where the right strategies can lead to life-changing profits. 

Whether you’re just starting out or looking to scale, this episode delivers the insights you need. As Mike says, “It’s a huge country; a blue ocean of opportunity. You’re going to find a deal.” Don’t miss this one.

Watch or listen to the full episode below! ⬇️

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Ron A.: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the real estate investing podcast. I’m your host, Ron Apke, joined today by one of our students. He’s been with us about 18 months, been doing land much longer than that. Mike DeFrancis. Mike, welcome to the show.

Mike D.: Thank you, Ron. Thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure.

Ron A.: I didn’t ask you, Mike, do you go by Mike or Michael, or you don’t care?

Mike D.: Doesn’t matter.

Ron A.: Doesn’t matter. There’s not many Michaels that carried their way I feel like every Michael or whatever whatever you want I just I just interviewed a different one. He’s the same thing. I don’t care Yeah, talk about when you got started in land. So you Are you let’s actually talk about your real estate background because you’ve been in real estate as you told me off camera since 2017 What were you doing kind of back then in real estate and then how’d that end up transitioning to land?

Mike D.: Yeah, it’s an interesting journey You know, I started My life as a chemical engineer, I went to Penn state and I lived in New Jersey for a couple of years out of school. Then my wife and I moved down here to Charlotte, North Carolina in twenty sixteen, and I was working in a manufacturing plant and I had a lot of time on the side.

So I got into just wholesaling single family houses, like, part time on the side, and I did that for. I want to say two years, close to two years as a side hustle. I had another side hustle where I kind of developed a CRM that I sold to other investors. So I had a couple of side hustles going on, was working as an engineer, was traveling a lot.

It was really exhausting. You know, I was traveling internationally, so time differences and I was always up selling stuff. So 2018, I quit my engineering job, went full time real estate and I stopped wholesaling at the time. And I got into fix and flip houses. For about another two years or so, I just did that.

I bought a bunch of rental properties did like the burr method on those here in the Charlotte area. And then I, and then, and that’s when I started buying land. I said, Hey, you know, fixing flip housing is kind of saturated, so let’s start building houses. So I started buying infill lots around Charlotte and sort of using all of my wholesaler background.

I was always good at finding stuff off market. So all my info lots were all off market acquisitions, and I started building houses for about two more years. This takes me to 2022 and in 2022 interest rates really started going up quickly. The market started shifting quickly, and I started to unload some of my lot inventory, and that really just kind of opened my eyes to like, whoa, look at the returns.

I’m getting just selling dirt. Right. Like, and it all stemmed from, you know, buying right off market. That’s always where you make your money is you know, when you buy. So that was kind of later 2022. And then into 2023 is when I sort of stumbled into my first real, I’ll call it land deal and really opened my eyes to like the possibility.

And in 2023 is when I started really hitting marketing hard. And that’s when I started tracking all my data and everything that I can share with you. Bye. Yeah, I’ve been doing a lot of stuff and in 2023 is really where I, I landed my first, I’ll call it land deal. And that opened my eyes and hit the ground running from there.

Ron A.: Wow. That’s incredible. Talk about that transition, leaving your job, like I’m sure you had a pretty steady job in terms of, yeah, you’re traveling a lot, everything like that, but pretty steady job. But this isn’t an easy decision, leaving your job to go wholesale houses, do fix and flips, everything like that.

Or is it like, I, like, this is a little stressful.

Mike D.: Not stressful. I’ve always been. Entrepreneurial. Yeah. And I was lucky to, at the time I had no kids, I, it was me and my wife. It was the right time to take that risk. I already had two years of proven history. You know, I had money in the bank. So because I had the side hustle for so long and was able to build not only a cash reserve, but also proof of concept, it was an easy transition.

And, and once I gained all that time back, it was like, you know, your revenue explodes, your lifestyle is so much happier. So no, I, it was, it was coming and I was happy for it.

Ron A.: So, yeah, I’m sure like your profits kind of took off when you could actually focus on that business full time. So when did you stop one more time?

When did you stop wholesaling and fix and flipping?

Mike D.: Around 2020 is when I started going heavy in new construction and acquiring infill lots. And I did that for like two years and then started selling off my lots as interest rates were going up on houses and buyers were kind of backing out. And then that’s when I kind of stumbled into like a real land deal.

Ron A.: So were you building the houses ground up or partnering with people? What did, what did that look like? Talk about, just explain one of those new construction deals that you did.

Mike D.: Yeah, I’m not a GC. I was sort of, I would just hire a GC, but I had one that was doing all my work for me. So it was spec builds maybe buy the land for 15 grand, build a house for a hundred thousand, let’s just say, and sell it for 190, 200.

And we would do maybe 15 to 20 of them a year. And I was, I was in the process of scaling that when the market took a shift. And that’s when I started liquidating.

Ron A.: It’s crazy. The number of people who like stumble on land and you’re definitely one of those people and it’s just like, it just clicks like, you’re like, okay, this doesn’t mean it’s someone who.

Did high, high volume new construction stuff. And he’s like, I’m making 10 percent on the house and I’m making 70 percent on the land, essentially. Your, your situation came up when you like started liquidating essentially. Like, okay, I, how long did you hold those pieces of land before you liquidated them?

And then I’m sure you had a crazy return.

Mike D.: Yeah. I mean, I was holding those, that inventory for probably at least six months.

Ron A.: Okay.

Mike D.: Cause that inventory was there to backfill my new construction sales. Right. So like you sell one, you start a new one. So I’m constantly buying at that time inventory to backfill.

So I would probably be holding it for six months in line for a new build. And then, but they sold like that.

Ron A.: There’s

Mike D.: no, it was no problem to sell them.

Ron A.: That’s amazing. Wow. So did you, how, how’d you learn all this? Was it BiggerPockets? Was it just just you’re, you’re that smart . How, how, how did you end up, how did you learn all this stuff?

Or just tests and like, you just, like, you made a lot of mistakes along the way. What did that look like?

Mike D.: It was all

Ron A.: self-taught in the wholesaling. Sorry.

Mike D.: Yeah. It was all self-taught and really just, I’ll tell you, like I, I learned wholesaling through Cody Sperber. Was the guy I bought his clever Investor program back in, I wanna say 2016 or 20 17, 300 bucks.

It was prerecorded modules. I watched it all, it taught me wholesaling. And then I just started taking action on it, on the side. And then, you know, as I was taking action, I was learning on the job. And I, if, if I didn’t know something, I would learn it. I would, I would build this stuff myself. I would do it all myself.

And I love learning that way. I’m not really. Good at like going and I mean, I am, I, I’m an engineer. I went to school and learned, but I like learning on the job more.

Ron A.: That’s really cool. When did, when did you graduate college? Like how long did you have that engineering job? Just curious.

Mike D.: I graduated in 2014, so it was only two years

Ron A.: longer than you’re an engineer.

You got it. Yeah, that’s right. But okay, so 2023, that sounds like that was like your first land deal that a lot of our viewers kind of would be familiar with. Talk about like those first deals. What did that look like? What was your marketing strategy? Very interested to hear about all this.

Mike D.: Yeah. So.

I’ve always had a website right from carrot and it always drove traffic and in 2023 early 2023. I think probably January. I got a lead from a twelve and a half acre tract of land in Walterborough, South Carolina, which is in Colton county. And at the time, I just totally disregarded it. I was like, I’ve never bought anything out of state.

I’ve never bought twelve acres of land. What am I going to do with that? But the asking price was 30 grand and that’s out the gate. And so, but then I thought, wow, 30, 000 for 12 and a half acres. Like that sounds, it just feels like a good deal to me. So let’s look into that. So then I just comp like I normally do go on Redfin, look at, you know, land around it.

It was easy to look at apples to apples. I didn’t know everything I know now with like wetlands, topo, flood zones, you name it, right? But I could at least see zoning. I was comfortable zoning and utilities and you know, other tracts of land around it. So I ended up buying it. It was an older lady in Texas.

She sold it to me for 30, 000. And while I was under contract, I found an end buyer using PropStream. Called him up, said, hey, I see you buy a ton of land in this county. Like, I have another one. Do you want it? He looked at it, bought it from me, double closed for 60k. And then I bought another parcel from that same seller right next to the one I had bought from her first.

She co owned it with her niece who she didn’t like. So I bought her 50 percent for a thousand bucks and then did a partition sale. With, from the niece got 50 percent of that. So it was like another six acres and sold it to the same guy. Wow. So, and then that’s kind of when I was like, wow, I like land.

That was super easy. I made the same amount of money I would on a build. It took me like a third of the time it took me 25 percent of the money and I got the same return in terms of cash. So how do I scale this? And that’s when I started to, okay. That was a, and that was an online lead, just sort of organic.

Ron A.: So from there, like, okay, so you ran into that deal, which is awesome. And then it kind of clicked like, okay, we can just buy and flip vacant land. From there, was it like, okay, you’re going to start marketing to people? Like, did you get educated? What, what did that look like as far as that process, that learning, like are other people doing, did you wonder if like other people are doing this or was it just like, I’m just going to go and start doing this myself?

Mike D.: Yeah, I didn’t wonder if anyone was doing it. I didn’t care. I just was like, I just made money doing it. I know I can do it again. And I already had such a good background and understanding of how to market to like sellers, right? So it was just basically pulling a different list than I would normally pull and, but really sort of strategically deciding what was the list going to be.

So I wanted to go after larger tracks. I didn’t want to do infill. And so I pulled the list and I think our, I started off with cold texting. So bulk cold texting and how I started my business was really, I was trying to do it in a wholesale manner. Where I would never really have to buy just a sign or double close.

And I did that for maybe four months and it didn’t work very well. So that’s when I really shifted to buying them and flipping them instead of trying to wholesale channel.

Ron A.: That makes sense. What was your volume of so when you first started, like after that Colleton County deals or two deals, I guess what was your volume of tax, like that you’re sending out to start?

Mike D.: I think we were doing at first, maybe small, maybe 5, 000 a month.

Ron A.: Okay. Then what are you doing today?

Mike D.: Oh, today we maybe spend 18 K a month and I do direct mail PPC. I do cold texts, but it’s more like laser focused as opposed to bulk and we do cold calling.

Ron A.: Let’s talk about that transition a little bit from like a lot of people try to just double close and stuff and like what wasn’t working with that?

Was it sellers not wanting to be under contract for 90 days? Or 120, whatever you’re trying to get them under contract for. Talk about that transition from being a double close wholesaling focused business to I’m going to buy this or get funding for this and resell it.

Mike D.: It was really simple for me. Coming from a few years of background, I already had a lot of private capital.

So I kind of play around with a fund of private capital that I’ve raised, and that is what helps me fuel some acquisition. I also raise money from other people as well. I, I never really liked wholesaling just because I always wanted to really feel like I was bringing value to the seller, right? I wanted to be.

Kind of a man of my word. Hey, if I say I’m going to buy this, if it’s legit deal, when I go through all my due diligence, I will close period. I don’t care if I find a buyer. I don’t care whatever. I’m buying it. If it’s a good deal, I’m done. And so that just mentally helped me sleep better at night transitioning into a business like that.

But then also the reason I made that transition was more about being able to sell retail. As a double closer or trying to wholesale and assign selling to an end investor, they’re going to want a margin. They might be a builder or buying hold, whatever. And so rarely was I getting even 80 percent market value.

So that means I would need to be acquiring it even lower. So to be competitive and to really like capture more offers and contracts and sell retail, I had to start buying. And when I started doing that, I really started getting, you know, five, 10 contracts a month. Back in 2023, things are a lot different than they are now, but it really helped me scale quickly.

Ron A.: That’s amazing. And you said you joined our community in 2023. Was that more so networking, meeting people in the business? Talk about that a little bit.

Mike D.: Yes. So coming back, like I said, from where I used to be, it’s all local Charlotte. So it’s super easy to go to meetups. Super easy. Everyone. There’s a thousand flippers and builders for one of what we do.

So I didn’t know, like, is there a community of land people, you know, investors, I want to meet them. I’m sure people are doing what I’m doing and that’s what I was looking for. And I found it through you guys. And I love it. Like there’s so many people. It’s insane. Like it’s almost overwhelming how much opportunity there is in the country.

Right. And so seeing everyone doing different things all over the country in different states is just like, it’s so cool to be able to to talk to people and get their experience and see what they’re doing and help each other.

Ron A.: Yeah, and deals aren’t like being taken from investors and stuff and like like you said like there’s so much opportunity out there Talk about that a little bit like how is the business you’ve only you’ve been doing the buy and flip two years As far as like because I get text discord messages Instagram mess every day.

Like, is it too saturated? Like, no, go ask 20 people on the street. Have you heard of land flipping? They’re going to look at you like you’re crazy. But talk about how that the market has kind of changed since you’ve been in it two years now, essentially.

Mike D.: I think it’s harder to like buy and flip.

Like you’re going to need to do a little bit more marketing than you needed to in 2023 to get like the same deals. Also resale prices are pretty flat. I’ll say, which is okay. As long as you price, right? Which I think is the number 1 thing in being successful is underwriting and pricing. Right? But it’s definitely not too saturated.

I mean, the thing about land is it’s constantly evolving, right? So, like, as Metropolitans. Develop it all expands out, right? Radiates out. So, if this area is too expensive for people to live and they just put. Publix and Walgreens and now it’s really, really high. Just develop Charlotte, right? So, Charlotte is growing like crazy.

Therefore, the surrounding counties are growing like crazy as those counties grow. It now becomes too expensive for some people who were living there. So they’re gonna move one step farther out. So, land prices and land development is constantly evolving. So, you’ll never run out of land ever. It’s all about just understanding your strategy.

I think. And I have pivoted so I do flip still I want to say it’s probably and I mean in terms of revenue This year will probably be 20 of my revenue will be flips but you still it’s still very very doable. I mean, there’s insane amount of land out there I don’t think you’ll ever run out. I mean i’m kind of stuck in north carolina, south carolina, georgia and tennessee I cannot expand my marketing outside those states because there’s just too much opportunity for what I have now

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Ron A.: Let’s let’s talk about your transition from 5, 000 cold texts a month. How did that transition over the last 18 months? As you scale it up your marketing spend, as you tried different marketing avenues and how you kind of ended up where you are today.

Mike D.: Yeah. So in 2023 is when I started marketing and I really just brought on maybe one VA at the time to help me just manage inbound leads and I sort of grew my business in a way of like. Replace myself in the seats that I like the least and do the things I really enjoy to do. So, first thing I did was I I hired, actually acquisitions, believe it or not.

I don’t love making offers at the time. You know, I feel like it’s low ball. Again, this is, I like being an honorable business, so I just don’t like that friction, especially with the wholesale side. But I, I grew we started doing a lot of deals in 2023. We ended up doing 22 deals, about 600, 000 in gross profit.

So I was able to hire some more people, start scaling my marketing with the flip mindset and in all of 2024, we only really flipped land. We didn’t do anything else. We ended the year in 2024 with 55 closed deals, about 1. 5 million gross profit and have a team of eight now working on really like systemizing and, you know, process mapping the business so that I can step out a little bit.

But really our focus now is more on. Yes, we will buy and sell. So my strategy is we send out marketing to the same people. We’ve changed it with the help of you guys in the land portal. Shout out to you guys for having the road frontage filters and the flood zone and wetland filters. So, we pull this there, we send out all the same marketing and then as leads come in, we look at them for is this 1, we can entitle develop.

So, I’d like to do development now, really large major entitlements. I have a couple of engineers on my team that helped me do all that. So it’s awesome. We, if it doesn’t work for that, we will do a minor subdivision. If it has the road frontage, if it has, you know, the value add capability of the minor at subdivision for the asking price, and if none of that is true, then we will flip.

So that’s my new business model. It’s no longer just flip, but it’s more project focused, I think. And then flipping is like our, you know, if the lead doesn’t fit any of the first two buckets, we’ll, we’ll make a flip offer.

Ron A.: It’s incredible. Let’s break down two things. Let’s break down your 8, 000, 18, 000 of marketing spend a month.

How is that separated?

Mike D.: About 7, 500 Google PPC. I want to say, um, 5, 000 in, in mail and then the rest between texting and call calling.

Ron A.: And then Google, let’s get into Google PPC in a few minutes here. Cause I’m sure a lot of people are going to have questions on that, but you said you have an eight person team outside of you.

What does that eight person team look like?

Mike D.: Cold callers, so I have to 1 underwriter, 1 cold texter acquisitions, due diligence manager, transaction coordinator. bookkeeper, cold caller, engineer.

Ron A.: I guess when the projects are more complex, so like having an engineer kind of overseeing the projects for sure.

Obviously that’s an important thing. We’ve been talking a lot about cold calling and bringing it in house. There’s a lot of places that you can outsource cold calling. Is that something you’ve ever done? Or is you always like, I want to have more control of this.

Mike D.: You know, when I started cold calling and I’ve done it in every single niche, I’ve tried wholesaling houses, builds.

I’ve always brought land or co calling in house, hired VAs, use call tools, write the script, get the list, skip, trace it, upload it, format it, all that. I don’t like it. I don’t like doing that. And I think it’s really a personal thing. I think that you, I’ve heard you guys talk about long term sustainability as a business and bringing co calling in house is probably a little bit more advantageous.

I, I, I agree with that. But I do agree, think that you, you need to be. The right type of manager or hire the right type of manager to manage a team of cold callers because It takes a certain skill set to be able to to listen to call recordings all the time, you know Audit those train those look at their kpis all that stuff If you have the ability to do that, then you can be very successful personally I outsource it all I outsource the cold calling to a third party vendor and I pay, you know 2500 bucks a month and I have one dedicated full time cold caller They track the KPIs, they do the training, they ensure I’m bringing in quality, qualified leads, and it works.

We get great leads. So I’m a big fan of don’t fix what’s not broken. And I will say for me personally, outsourcing it to a third party vendor has been more successful than bring it in house.

Ron A.: That’s awesome. So let’s break down that 7, 500 PPC. Just talk about PPC as a whole. Cause it’s not something that we’ve ever taught.

I, I. In terms of for land, a lot of scammers I think are around PPC. But talk about PPC, the success. You’re obviously, I mean, it’s your biggest spend in terms of where you’re putting your marketing dollars. But talk about that a little bit.

Mike D.: Yeah, we, it’s our biggest spend for sure. We do PPC in North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida, Georgia, and Tennessee, about 50 a day.

Maybe 30 a day in Florida. I haven’t scaled much there, but PPC, you’re gonna get a lot more bad leads big time. And we do. So, you know, we might get, let’s just say, 90 leads, 100 leads a month through PPC and only 50 of them are even qualified. The rest of them could be landlocked flood zones. Scammers, like you said, whatever, so you’re going to go, you’re going to have a lot more misses and you’re going to have to spend more time there.

But it really honestly, like, in terms of ROI, SMS marketing is, is the best return on investment, but it’s a little risky. I don’t like the legality side of that. PPC is a very close number 2 for me in terms of ROI. So we continue with it and we just push through the bad noise. And I mean, yesterday we got a 77 acre lead in South Carolina through PPC.

So you’re going to get some gems too.

Ron A.: That’s amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve heard, I’ve heard good things there. There’s bad and good with all I think forms of marketing. And if your return on ad spend is good and as long as you have the due diligence process down, I think you’re going to get a really good ROI.

Talk about your, I mean, having eight people on a team, like talk about your role in this business. Is it just kind of like, are you managing it all? Are you trying to step out further? Talk about your current role and then also kind of what your your future role, what you want that to be.

Mike D.: Yeah, I’m very management intensive, I think, so I’m, I’m always there for my team.

I have regularly scheduled meeting cadences with them each week. I do assist heavily on underwriting the larger deals. So entitlements where we’re looking at, you know, maybe 180 acres and chopping it up into 200 lots. So I’ll get really involved with that. And I also manage the marketing, making sure that the marketing is going on time.

And it is a lot, I will say, to manage all of it. But my team does a great job where I, where I want to go in the future for myself is probably more. I want to be more on the side of the project focused stuff. So, looking and underwriting major subdivisions, working closely with our engineers and the county to get things done and then have my team just really do the rest of the stuff for me.

So there’s a lot of things I need to do to get from here to there.

Ron A.: Are you the type of person that like sets revenue goals, stuff like that? You, you did 1. 5 gross last year, 600 gross 2023. I know you want to do, I don’t know if you want to do less deals or just bigger deals. But what are your goals for 2025?

Outside of the deal type, which we understand develop and title minor subdivide.

Mike D.: Yeah, I do set revenue goals for sure. And it’s not as much top line. So I think top line in 2024, we did about. Three and a half million. I set my, my revenue targets on gross profit and, and I pay my, my team commission and bonuses based on gross profit as well.

So they’re incentivized on that. I used to value like deal volume per year. So last year we had a metric that said if we hit 60 closed deals, everyone gets paid out so much money. Now I do not do that. It’s more about bigger deals. I don’t, I don’t care if I do one deal, it makes me 10 million. That would be easier.

Right? So I’m, I’m more focused on less deals, bigger deals.

So I think right now

Mike D.: we have like six minor subdivides going on. We have four entitlements going on and the rest would be flips.

Ron A.: And what, what is your gross profit goal for 2025?

Mike D.: I think our pro forma has us slated to if some of the entitlements pan out, we’ll probably end up around four or 5 million gross profit.

Ron A.: And then those entitlements, like where, where is that? You, you have a good background from building ground up, everything like that. Is that from working with zoning departments in the past? Is that from some education? Like entitlements are a long process and it’s not like you have so much experience in terms of different types of deals.

Where are you just constantly learning and trying to evolve your business?

Mike D.: Yes. So learning the entitlements, to be honest, it’s simple, like, and I don’t want to oversimplify it because there’s a lot of movie pieces that go into it. But I think the reason I’m successful in it is I only do things with as permitted use.

I do not rezone. I’ve tried rezoning. It’s just a political bloodbath, it turns out. I don’t enjoy that. So, whatever the land is currently zoned for, that’s what I’m making it off. That’s what I’m underwriting on. If it’s zoned for 1 acre lots, I’m going to look at 1 acre lot subdivision. If it’s already 20, I’m looking at 20, 000 square foot subdivision.

That’s it. And I’m making offers based on that. If you can get contracts with that, I mean, the county can’t say, no, it’s by right. No, 1 can come shut you down. The only thing that shuts you down at that point is. Environmental stuff. So if you have too much rock, you know, and you’ll, you’ll hire environmentalists to go out and it’s going to cost you about 80, 000 per deal to get all this stuff done.

And if all that pans out, it’s almost a done deal. You know, you just get it engineered and you have to go find your end buyer, pretty much. So, it takes a while just because all that stuff has to fall in line. And so we do what we do is we get 9 to 12 month contracts. For those deals. We’d never buy them raw and then try and entitle.

That would be a recipe to lose. You have to get a 12 month contract and the seller has to understand, Hey, I’m paying you market value for this land because I’m going to do this project. And I’ll give them money at different milestones, maybe like 90 days, 180 days, 210 days. And then while we’re under contract is when I do all of the entitlement work.

And if something falls through, sorry. Cancel the deal. Maybe I lose some money, but that’s okay. Because, you know, like there’s really not a lot of competition for what I’ve learned is that there’s a lot, there’s a lot of big developers, but there’s not a lot of developers who have the marketing to, to go after off market seller deals.

Right. They’re, they’re looking for deals on market, or maybe they’re looking for pad ready lots. There’s not a lot of competition in going after the hundred acre size property in rural South Carolina that has public water and septic and putting 80 units on there. It does not. So, like, I may only need 10 leads for every 10 offers we make, we get a deal, right?

And every one deal might yield, let’s just say, a million gross profit. So if I lock up 12 deals in a year and eight of them fall out, but four of them pan out, maybe I lost 80K on eight of them, but I just made 4 million on four of them. So in terms of overall numbers, it works out well.

Ron A.: So do you do you have money or you end up double closing a lot of those entitlements at the end of those contracts double closing, getting them all built or ready, essentially.

Like how, how far down the line do you get it? Just everything up till like breaking ground essentially.

Mike D.: Pretty much. So, so the goal with that business or that exit strategy is full entitlement, full permits, find my end builder developer before our closing date and then double close. If for some reason the market is off, because again, it’s 12 months down the line, or maybe we don’t find the right builder and they, or we find builders, but they want them pad ready.

They don’t want to buy paper. Then we do have the ability to go and develop them ourselves as well.

Ron A.: Got it. So, like, let’s talk about this 77 acre deal. I believe you said 77 acre deal in South Carolina that you got in yesterday. Like, what do the steps look for, like, for that in the first week of you getting something under, did you get that under contract or is it a lead?

No,

Mike D.: that was just a lead, but the most recent one we got, you’re talking entitlement?

Ron A.: Yeah, just the, yeah, the process of that. What does that look like?

Mike D.: Yeah, so the first thing we do is I always, as soon as we get a contract, obviously, we send it the title, right? I don’t start spending any money on environmental until I know titles clear, or at least have an idea of how we’re going to clear it.

And it’s simple, not a mess. So, send it to the attorney, then I get my engineer involved and he comes up with a site plan and a horizontal cost estimate. So, I kind of can. Rerun my pro forma and make sure yes, it’s still like, has some legs and if it does, then we submit it to the county for a preliminary site plan review and we have a meeting with them and my engineer.

And we basically just get their comments, their feedback. Does this project look good? Do they have anything they want us to add? Blah, blah, blah. And then if based on their comments, we’ll revise the site plan, we’ll revise the cost estimate, rerun the pro forma, make sure it’s still good. If it is and title is good, then that’s when we hit all the environmental stuff.

So we’ll get wetland delineations. We’ll do phase 1 studies, soil studies, geotech studies. And, um, Army Corps of engineer jurisdictional sign off on the wetlands. And if all that looks good, that typically will take, like, 2 months and maybe that’s where you spend 60, 000, depending on the size of your site.

If all that looks good, then my engineer takes over. We get obviously we’ll get a survey then to a boundary survey and a topography survey. My engineer will take those, design the site, and that’s when you start submitting it to the county for approval, and to NCDOT for approval, and getting all your permits, and that’s that.

Once it’s all approved, ready to sell.

Ron A.: Wow. So you kind of start with the cheapest things, like title, like that’s going to cost whatever, 1, 200, whatever it costs to do a title search, making sure that’s clean and then just kind of move up to the more expensive stuff. But when you’re first looking at that deal, you’re buying from market value.

How are you evaluating like, okay, if I break this into 70 lots, this is what a developer is going to pay. How, how do you value that?

Mike D.: I value it based on recent new build sales. So let’s say in the market, there’s. A neighborhood a mile down the road and they’re selling new homes for 360, 000, you know, typically right now.

Depending on the market, but overall, I’ll just say with blanket brushstroke, builders will pay about 20 to 22 percent of finished home value for a pad ready lot. Okay, so that means let’s just say for, let’s just do some easy math. 350k resale home price. That means they’re going to pay, let’s just say 70 to 75, 000 for pad ready, build ready.

I can take this and build a house today lot. So 70, 000 is how much we can resell a lot to for. So now I just need to reverse engineer how much is it going to cost me to take this from raw land to a pad ready lot, right? And let’s say it’s going to cost you 40, 000 per lot. So I’m going to look at the site, kind of estimate how many lots do I think I could get, estimate how much do I think it’s going to cost me to develop a site to get it pad ready, and from there I can sort of reverse engineer how much I can pay for the raw dirt based on how much money do I want to make.

So let’s say I want to make 10, 000 per lot. So if it’s a 50 lot subdivision. I want to make 10, 000 per lot. That’s 500 grand. So 40, 000 is my horizontal cost estimate that I’m ballparking. I think it’s gonna cost me about, I think I can resell pad ready lots for, let’s say, what we say, 70, 000. So, that means I have, like, 30 grand per lot.

I can pay well, 20, because I got to build my profit in. Right? So, I can pay about 20, 000 per lot times 50 million bucks.

Ron A.: That makes a ton of sense when you break it down like that. So are you are you doing anything with utilities anything with roads? Are you doing all that stuff to get it ready for a developer?

Mike D.: So we budget that into like our, our horizontal cost estimate. Like every, every single subdivision has utility extensions, roadway, construction, curb and gutter, storm drainage, you name it. Right now there’s such a demand, depending on your state, there’s such a demand for lots that some builders will just buy paper lots, which is what I’m trying to sell.

And if they buy my entitled paper lot, they’re going to be the ones that go in and actually physically put the roads in, physically extend utilities, do all that to make it pad ready. So maybe I have to shave 5, 000 off to give them like a little, you know, profit on doing that per lot. But if we make it pad ready, yeah, that’s where we spend that 40, 000 per lot.

Right to do the roads do the utilities and then we would sell it for 70, 000 per lot in that example.

Ron A.: That’s amazing So what is your you obviously want to when you’re targeting this kind of stuff? You obviously want to be in areas where there are new builds What is your criteria look like when you’re trying to not necessarily target a new area?

It seems like you’re in areas and kind of just keep on going in those areas But what is your criteria looking like are you trying to stay pretty close to a city or new builds? What does that look like when you’re picking an area though?

Mike D.: Well, I don’t really pick areas like I mentioned before, like we market to all these states and we analyze every lead that comes in based on is the market good for an entitlement, right?

So, like, the first thing we look at, okay, is an entitlement deal, subdivide deal or flip deal and an entitlement deal. Part of that, like, underwriting is not only the land size, the road frontage, the topography, wetlands, flood zones, but also the market, right? Like, if it’s in total rural Georgia. Now. Like if you look at, if you zoom out on land ID and you see like the smallest track around is 10 acres, like you’re not chopping anything up into half acre lots and selling them.

So we basically send out marketing to anyone that’s over five acres of land. Anyone. And if Mark, as the leads come in, we analyze them for those three exit strategies, entitlement, minor subdivide and flip, and we’ll make an offer based on which one we think brings the most value to the company.

Ron A.: So your PPC is essentially we buy land is your mail and texting very neutral as well in terms of, you just want leads coming in so you can make offers based on the land.

Mike D.: 100%. That’s exactly right. Yes. I used to do offer ranges when I was just flipping. But it’s hard to do offer ranges now because I don’t know what the land is going to be when it comes in. Like, I don’t want to send someone a 50, 50 percent market value offer on a land. Deal where I’m like, shoot, that could have been an awesome entitlement play.

So I’m sending neutral everything. And then as they come in, we, we underwrite.

Ron A.: Nice. So you said you’re getting, are you getting, is that you said 90 to a hundred leads, is that accurate for how much leads you’re getting for PPC on your spend about, yes. Okay. And then what about like, how many leads are you getting per month overall?

When you add in another, I guess, 10, 000 texting, mail, cold calling, how many leads are you guys having to evaluate per month?

Mike D.: Honestly, per month we’re doing, we’re getting about I’ll say 90 to 150 qualified leads per month for all of our ad spend.

Ron A.: Nice. And then how many, how many deals are you kind of getting under contract?

And then also going on that, like of the ones you go under contract, especially entitlements, I’m curious, like of the ones you go on a contract for entitlements, how many fall through?

Mike D.: So we get last year we were doing more volume. So we were running about 15 contracts a month for flipped. And now we’re probably closer to, I would say five to eight per month.

Because I’m really targeting bigger deals. I would, I haven’t run the numbers, but I would say for every 10 offers we make on entitlement projects, we get one contract. So 10 percent conversion. And again, that’s just because it could be even higher than that, frankly. There’s just not a lot of competition for that.

It really does take a certain skill set. And I mean, no one’s beating me on my offer, right, for that, for that land. So we get those. And then I would say fall through rate is is not, it’s not very high. I want to say we, we budget about, I will say I budget about 60 percent of my entitlement deals will fall through for, and that’s because most of the stuff we’re getting is septic, septic land.

And if you got, you know, here in the Carolinas land is so like scattered with good soil, bad soil. So when I underwrite the deal, I underwrite it as if every single lot will perk. But whenever we get our soil suitability study done and he says, Hey, this back corner sucks, or like it’s so scattered, it just, that, that kills the deal right there.

So if I can, if I can convert 40, I’m happy. 40%.

Ron A.: You, do you make a new offer for those people? Like, okay, I can’t, yeah, just get, just try to work the deal. See what happens.

Mike D.: Yeah. So my, my mindset is just lock it up. Yeah. So I, I don’t really commit any hard money day one. I’ll put maybe 5, 000 in escrow and I’ll say, Hey, after 30 days, if title is clear, that goes hard.

That gives me 30 days to do some due diligence with my engineer and the county to make sure that it has legs. And then, yeah, with the soil, if it goes bad, I always renegotiate. And if for some reason they’re just like, no, I’m not renegotiating, I’m just going to keep the land. Okay, I lost the 5, 000 hard and the 10, 000 soil study.

Not a big deal.

Ron A.: Do you have like a certain amount of money that you project losing every year to studies of deals that fall through? Is it just like at scale? This is going to work. It’s going to happen. I’m okay with it.

Mike D.: Yeah. I haven’t put a number on it. I just say at scale it will happen. And I think that’s sort of the approach I’ve always taken in real estate.

It’s just like, just go for it and it’ll all work out. It seems like we have a good model. The reason it works is like I said, I do everything for with permitted use and having an engineer on my team is. Yeah. Absolutely. A huge value add. I mean, I can’t understate that. If I were to hire a third party engineer to engineer my sites, it’s going to cost me 3, 000 roughly cash per lot out of pocket before it’s even entitled.

So, a hundred lot subdivision, you better be ready to stroke a 300, 000 check just to get them to engineer it before you’re even done. But for me, I pay, it’s for free. And then I profit share with my engineer. So, I can scale my entitlement business because I have an engineer that’s on a profit share model.

Ron A.: What kind of, what kind of engineer, what’s his background?

Mike D.: Civil engineer,

Ron A.: PE. Nice. Is that a connection from prior, from your previous life as an engineer? Is that just something that as you were doing these construction deals, you kind of met him or you? No,

Mike D.: I think, how did I meet him? You’re going to laugh.

I think it was through Upwork.

Ron A.: Oh, really?

Mike D.: Yeah. And he it was back when I was starting to do minor subdivides and I wanted someone to just generate site plans for me so that I could take those to the County and review them with them before I close on the deal and get their feedback. But being a licensed PE civil engineer, he has the ability to engineer full sites and stamp them, which is what you need to do these types of deals.

And so I just decided, Hey, I ran the numbers on how this worked. If I had to shell out 500 K 300 K for every single entitlement deal, you’re really restricted on how many deals you can do. But if I remove that huge cash burden and bring him in as a partner, he has the ability to make way more money and I can do 10 times the deals, so.

It’s a win win and he was on board.

Ron A.: That’s

Mike D.: amazing.

Ron A.: That, that definitely is a that’s definitely a win win. I mean, if you’re saving a few hundred thousand dollars every deal by having someone in house, but I mean, I could talk to you all day, Mike. But what let’s talk about people looking to get into this business as backup, obviously a lot of high level stuff there with entitlements, all that stuff.

What kind of advice would you have someone for someone looking to get in? Maybe someone who has a W 2 job and just wants to make some more money in land. What’s your advice for someone looking to get into this business?

Mike D.: Do it is my advice. I mean, honestly, so my, my advice is learn how to underwrite and make good offers because, and this is advice, not just for land, but just real estate in general, you always make your money when you buy period, right?

So. If you make the wrong offer, it’s gonna be really hard to renegotiate and it’s gonna be really hard to sell for a profit if you buy it wrong. So, learn how to make offers, or sorry, learn how to underwrite is the most critical piece, I think, of this business. I would also say, pick a niche, stick with it.

Probably listening to this conversation and listening to the other, however many podcasts you guys have and all the other YouTube videos about LandOut there. It’s so easy to get shiny object syndrome and try so many different things, but if you’re going to get lost and like, it’s going to feel overwhelming.

So, the way I started was one thing. I wholesale houses and then I quit that. I did one thing and I quit that. I did one thing. Now, in land, I started, I was just flipping for a whole year and a half, 18 months. All I did was buy and sell. I didn’t subdivide. I didn’t entitle. I didn’t do anything. And I was successful with that.

And once you learn how to do one thing really good, then you can add on. So learn how to underwrite and just pick one thing and go hard at it. And then the other thing would just be, don’t get discouraged, frankly, like, like we’ve mentioned, it’s a, it’s a huge country and a blue ocean of opportunity. So you’re going to find a deal period.

Ron A.: That’s really good advice. And yeah, we, we talked so much about entitling guys over the last 15, 20 minutes. Don’t forget what Mike, Mike was doing. Michael was doing the first 18 months in land, like he was buying and flipping. It’s a very natural trajectory and now he’s doing a way higher level skill thing.

That has just naturally come about. But Mike, I really appreciate you coming on. It was an amazing conversation. I’m excited to see there’s so much, so much knowledge given in this episode. Other than that, guys, if you’re watching on YouTube, hit the subscribe button below. If you’re listening on Spotify or Apple, share this with a friend.

We’ll see you next time.

Watch the Full Episode Here

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